The Abolition of Work (link)

Correspondent:: Morningdew
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:10:52 -0600

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Check out Bob Black's article, "The Abolition of Work":

http://deoxy.org/endwork.htm

This is an interesting article. Actually, I think it's a great
article, if it could be a little better written. But I should not
criticize him too much... Bob Black does a pretty good job of
explaining such an off-beat point of view. Better than I could. He
takes a little time, at first, to get to the thrust of his arguments...
But hey, what's the hurry? =*D If you can't have fun with it, what's
the point, really? After reading it, though, I have to say that he does
hit very squarely on most of my feelings and conceptions about work.

Sad thing is, despite how right he is, we are in a small, small
minority. Even people who, intellectually, can understand this still
react emotionally in a very negative way to the notion of rejecting
work. Hell, even if you feel it on a gut level, it's hard to explain or
defend your feelings - much less know "what do to" or how to even feel
good about yourself if you try to follow your gut. Conditioning of
mental slavery runs deeper than most care to admit of themselves, and is
hard to shake. Sort of like "Brooks" from the movie "The Shawshank
Redemption"... We are already so "institutionalized". I guess that's
why it's slavery... Even if you understand you're a slave, you're still
stuck with it one way or another. But realization must be the first
step toward liberation. That much I know. Makes me think of
"Redemption Song" and feel it just that much more.

Peace,
Morningdew

PS - Hope nobody is upset at the cross-posting... I picked a few
audiences that I felt would appreciate this article. We all need a
little slack ;-)

Correspondent:: BIG ONE
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 06:56:05 +0000

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On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:10:52 -0600, in alt.anarchism Morningdew
wrote:

>Check out Bob Black's article, "The Abolition of Work":
>
>http://deoxy.org/endwork.htm

Freedom Press do a book called 'Why Work ?' which is a collection of
30 papers on topics surrounding this issue, many of them are just as
inspirational as Blacks ISBN 0-900384-25-5

Correspondent:: Morningdew
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 03:59:10 -0600

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BIG ONE wrote:

> Freedom Press do a book called 'Why Work ?' which is a collection of
> 30 papers on topics surrounding this issue, many of them are just as
> inspirational as Blacks ISBN 0-900384-25-5

Thanks. I am interested in more thinking on this subject, so I will
check it out.

Walk Like an al-KehMehT-ian,
Morningdew

Correspondent:: BIG ONE
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:26:46 +0000

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On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 03:59:10 -0600, in alt.anarchism Morningdew
wrote:

>BIG ONE wrote:
>
>> Freedom Press do a book called 'Why Work ?' which is a collection of
>> 30 papers on topics surrounding this issue, many of them are just as
>> inspirational as Blacks ISBN 0-900384-25-5
>
>Thanks. I am interested in more thinking on this subject, so I will
>check it out.
>
>Walk Like an al-KehMehT-ian,

I'm sure if you transmutate into your local library they can order
you a copy

Correspondent:: "Michael A. Clem"
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:34:50 -0800

--------
Morningdew wrote:
> Check out Bob Black's article, "The Abolition of Work":
>
> http://deoxy.org/endwork.htm
>
> This is an interesting article. Actually, I think it's a great
> article, if it could be a little better written. But I should not
> criticize him too much... Bob Black does a pretty good job of
> explaining such an off-beat point of view. Better than I could. He
> takes a little time, at first, to get to the thrust of his arguments...
> But hey, what's the hurry? =*D If you can't have fun with it, what's
> the point, really? After reading it, though, I have to say that he does
> hit very squarely on most of my feelings and conceptions about work.

The author of the article says that he's not playing definitional
games, and yet, he defines "work" as forced labor. Thus, if we go by
his definition, only authoritarians support "work", and his skewing of
various groups makes little sense.
While I certainly think that labor could be organized in radically
different ways, the fact remains that certain amounts of productive
labor is required by nature if men are to survive and thrive. How much
productive labor is necessary, how this labor is to be divided and
organized, are certainly questions open to debate. But only if we know
which definitions we're using.

Correspondent:: Morningdew
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:34:54 -0600

--------
Michael A. Clem wrote:
> Morningdew wrote:
>
>> Check out Bob Black's article, "The Abolition of Work":
>>
>> http://deoxy.org/endwork.htm
>>
>> This is an interesting article. Actually, I think it's a great
>> article, if it could be a little better written. But I should not
>> criticize him too much... Bob Black does a pretty good job of
>> explaining such an off-beat point of view. Better than I could. He
>> takes a little time, at first, to get to the thrust of his
>> arguments... But hey, what's the hurry? =*D If you can't have fun
>> with it, what's the point, really? After reading it, though, I have
>> to say that he does hit very squarely on most of my feelings and
>> conceptions about work.
>
>
> The author of the article says that he's not playing definitional
> games, and yet, he defines "work" as forced labor. Thus, if we go by
> his definition, only authoritarians support "work", and his skewing of
> various groups makes little sense.
> While I certainly think that labor could be organized in radically
> different ways, the fact remains that certain amounts of productive
> labor is required by nature if men are to survive and thrive. How much
> productive labor is necessary, how this labor is to be divided and
> organized, are certainly questions open to debate. But only if we know
> which definitions we're using.
>
>
I would have to agree that his definition of work as "forced labor" is
extremely narrow. A better article and argument could be written. But
I had not come across anything else that really tried to articulate the
concept before. I am happy to have responses suggesting other works.

For me, the principal arguments and concepts hold up. True, people have
to do some productive work to survive. But even survival work can
largely be no big deal. Consider a group sitting around making quilts,
talking, socializing. The quilts are a productive use of time. But it
is not compulsory... The quilters like what they do and love giving
their creations to those they know and love.

The vison resonates with me from having been to a few Rainbow
Gatherings, where something akin to his vison manifests - if only for a
time. Other ways of living and organizing ourselves are demonstrably
possible, quite liberating, and even profoundly healing.

Peace,
Morningdew

Correspondent:: "Michael A. Clem"
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:21:27 -0800

--------
Morningdew wrote:

>>
> I would have to agree that his definition of work as "forced labor" is
> extremely narrow. A better article and argument could be written. But
> I had not come across anything else that really tried to articulate the
> concept before. I am happy to have responses suggesting other works.

Fair enough.

> The vison resonates with me from having been to a few Rainbow
> Gatherings, where something akin to his vison manifests - if only for a
> time. Other ways of living and organizing ourselves are demonstrably
> possible, quite liberating, and even profoundly healing.
>
> Peace,
> Morningdew

To paraphrase somebody or other: Try 'em all, and let reality sort 'em out.

Correspondent:: "Blue"
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 00:54:39 -0000

--------
Someone has to be the heart surgeon.
Someone has to make the scalpel.
Someone has to work in the foundry to make the steel.
Someone has to dig out the iron ore and the coal.
Someone has to transport it.
etc
etc
And you want to sit around making quilts?

When you need a heart op don't call us.

"Michael A. Clem" wrote in message
news:10v5an7ehusj9f9@corp.supernews.com...
> Morningdew wrote:
> > Check out Bob Black's article, "The Abolition of Work":
> >
> > http://deoxy.org/endwork.htm
> >
> > This is an interesting article. Actually, I think it's a great
> > article, if it could be a little better written. But I should not
> > criticize him too much... Bob Black does a pretty good job of
> > explaining such an off-beat point of view. Better than I could. He
> > takes a little time, at first, to get to the thrust of his arguments...
> > But hey, what's the hurry? =*D If you can't have fun with it, what's
> > the point, really? After reading it, though, I have to say that he does
> > hit very squarely on most of my feelings and conceptions about work.
>
> The author of the article says that he's not playing definitional
> games, and yet, he defines "work" as forced labor. Thus, if we go by
> his definition, only authoritarians support "work", and his skewing of
> various groups makes little sense.
> While I certainly think that labor could be organized in radically
> different ways, the fact remains that certain amounts of productive
> labor is required by nature if men are to survive and thrive. How much
> productive labor is necessary, how this labor is to be divided and
> organized, are certainly questions open to debate. But only if we know
> which definitions we're using.
>
>

Correspondent:: "angelicusrex"
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:43:07 -0700

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I think you've got old Rev. Nenslo all wrong here...I think he wants you to
do all these things for FUN! He just resents everyone needing to get a
living wage from working for the man! You should eschew the benefits and
forgo the salary and just mine iron because by golly; It's a hoot!

Archimandrite Pudlevitcz

Correspondent:: nenslo
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 22:52:23 -0800

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angelicusrex wrote:
>
> I think you've got old Rev. Nenslo all wrong here...I think he wants you to
> do all these things for FUN! He just resents everyone needing to get a
> living wage from working for the man! You should eschew the benefits and
> forgo the salary and just mine iron because by golly; It's a hoot!
>
> Archimandrite Pudlevitcz

This is the first time I have ever publicly been given credit for that
essay. Few people know that I wrote under that name when I was in my
"anarchist" phase. Personally I think it's a pretty infantile endeavor,
and am astonished that anyone is still interested in it. Mostly it
seems to appeal to people with the same juvenile outlook I had when I
wrote it - i.e. DUMBASSES. When I read it now it seems to me to be the
sort of thing that might be written by someone destined to die a drunk
on welfare.

Correspondent:: HdMrs. Salacia the Overseer
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 03:59:20 -0600

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On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 22:52:23 -0800, nenslo wrote:

>angelicusrex wrote:
>>
>> I think you've got old Rev. Nenslo all wrong here...I think he wants you to
>> do all these things for FUN! He just resents everyone needing to get a
>> living wage from working for the man! You should eschew the benefits and
>> forgo the salary and just mine iron because by golly; It's a hoot!
>>
>> Archimandrite Pudlevitcz
>
>This is the first time I have ever publicly been given credit for that
>essay. Few people know that I wrote under that name when I was in my
>"anarchist" phase. Personally I think it's a pretty infantile endeavor,
>and am astonished that anyone is still interested in it. Mostly it
>seems to appeal to people with the same juvenile outlook I had when I
>wrote it - i.e. DUMBASSES. When I read it now it seems to me to be the
>sort of thing that might be written by someone destined to die a drunk
>on welfare.

You're as mercurial a philosopher as Sartre.

Correspondent:: "Michael A. Clem"
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 12:47:52 -0600

--------
angelicusrex wrote:
> I think you've got old Rev. Nenslo all wrong here...I think he wants you to
> do all these things for FUN! He just resents everyone needing to get a
> living wage from working for the man! You should eschew the benefits and
> forgo the salary and just mine iron because by golly; It's a hoot!
>
> Archimandrite Pudlevitcz
>

You're so right! I can see that dumping garbage, sawing wood, laying
asphalt, tarring roofs, cleaning chimneys, and other such wonderful
activities can be fun, fun, fun! More fun than a person should be
allowed to have! Who needs money?

Correspondent:: nenslo
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 11:59:13 -0800

--------
"Michael A. Clem" wrote:
>
> angelicusrex wrote:
> > I think you've got old Rev. Nenslo all wrong here...I think he wants you to
> > do all these things for FUN! He just resents everyone needing to get a
> > living wage from working for the man! You should eschew the benefits and
> > forgo the salary and just mine iron because by golly; It's a hoot!
> >
> > Archimandrite Pudlevitcz
> >
>
> You're so right! I can see that dumping garbage, sawing wood, laying
> asphalt, tarring roofs, cleaning chimneys, and other such wonderful
> activities can be fun, fun, fun! More fun than a person should be
> allowed to have! Who needs money?

If it is YOUR garbage, wood, asphalt, roof and chimney, there is a great
deal of satisfaction which results.

Correspondent:: quirk@syntac.net
Date: 3 Feb 2005 02:59:27 -0800

--------

Morningdew wrote:

> Check out Bob Black's article, "The Abolition of Work":

> http://deoxy.org/endwork.htm

> This is an interesting article. Actually, I think it's a great
> article, if it could be a little better written.

http://www.antenna.nl/~waterman/gorz.html

Andr� Gorz is another very influentlial thinker in this area.

However, I tend to think the that focus on "work" is misplaced, my
position is that is "Riccardian" or "Economic" Rents that are the basis
of alientated labour, "The Abolition of Rent" is what is needed.

Correspondent:: nenslo
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 12:00:17 -0800

--------
quirk@syntac.net wrote:
>
> Morningdew wrote:
>
> > Check out Bob Black's article, "The Abolition of Work":
>
> > http://deoxy.org/endwork.htm
>
> > This is an interesting article. Actually, I think it's a great
> > article, if it could be a little better written.
>
> http://www.antenna.nl/~waterman/gorz.html
>
> Andr� Gorz is another very influentlial thinker in this area.
>
> However, I tend to think the that focus on "work" is misplaced, my
> position is that is "Riccardian" or "Economic" Rents that are the basis
> of alientated labour, "The Abolition of Rent" is what is needed.

The abolition of money solves it all.