Church versus State
Correspondent:: hexanthic@techemail.com (Den Mu)
Date: 26 Oct 2004 14:04:33 -0700
--------
May the State win!
Fuck the Church
Correspondent:: "nu-monet v7.0"
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:21:04 -0700
--------
Den Mu wrote:
>
> May the State win!
>
> Fuck the Church
Either way, you lose.
Face it, in the harshest dictatorship
some undeserving lout gets brutalized
and another, equally undeserving lout
gets over. And the same applies to the
nicest, sweetest liberal democracy you
can think of.
Back when the church ruled things, there
were lots of cynical scoundrels who made
out like bandits, and those who hung out
with them, who while not getting over, got
theirs.
Instead of blowing off the church and the
government on the Internet right now, you'd
be doing exactly the same at some grog bar.
Or, as Yogi Berra said: "It's half of one
and six dozen of the other."
--
"YOU BELONG TO US NOW!"
"GET DOWN WITH MY SICKNESS!!"
--Kino Beman, brand name
Correspondent:: Cardinal Vertigo
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 22:51:17 GMT
--------
nu-monet v7.0 wrote:
> Den Mu wrote:
>>
>> May the State win!
>>
>> Fuck the Church
>
> Either way, you lose.
>
> Face it, in the harshest dictatorship
> some undeserving lout gets brutalized
> and another, equally undeserving lout
> gets over. And the same applies to the
> nicest, sweetest liberal democracy you
> can think of.
>
> Back when the church ruled things, there
> were lots of cynical scoundrels who made
> out like bandits, and those who hung out
> with them, who while not getting over, got
> theirs.
>
> Instead of blowing off the church and the
> government on the Internet right now, you'd
> be doing exactly the same at some grog bar.
>
> Or, as Yogi Berra said: "It's half of one
> and six dozen of the other."
That's right. Just keep on being disenfranchised; things are obviously
fine the way they are.
Correspondent:: kdetal@aol.com (KD et al)
Date: 27 Oct 2004 00:06:37 GMT
--------
Vertigo wrote:
>nu-monet v7.0 wrote:
>> Den Mu wrote:
>>>
>>> May the State win!
>>>
>>> Fuck the Church
>>
>> Either way, you lose.
>>
>> Face it, in the harshest dictatorship
>> some undeserving lout gets brutalized
>> and another, equally undeserving lout
>> gets over. And the same applies to the
>> nicest, sweetest liberal democracy you
>> can think of.
>>
>> Back when the church ruled things, there
>> were lots of cynical scoundrels who made
>> out like bandits, and those who hung out
>> with them, who while not getting over, got
>> theirs.
>>
>> Instead of blowing off the church and the
>> government on the Internet right now, you'd
>> be doing exactly the same at some grog bar.
>>
>> Or, as Yogi Berra said: "It's half of one
>> and six dozen of the other."
>
>That's right. Just keep on being disenfranchised; things are obviously
>fine the way they are.
Maybe he's an existentialist.
--
"Oh, hell, don't let them drink your tears and want more!..I'll be damned if
death wears MY sadness for glad rags. Don't feed them one damn
thing.."Nothing...funny.." "SURE there is! Me! You!..All of us!..Look!" -from
Something Wicked This Way Comes
Correspondent:: Cardinal Vertigo
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 00:18:37 GMT
--------
KD et al wrote:
> Vertigo wrote:
>>nu-monet v7.0 wrote:
>>> Den Mu wrote:
>>>>
>>>> May the State win!
>>>>
>>>> Fuck the Church
>>>
>>> Either way, you lose.
>>>
>>> Face it, in the harshest dictatorship
>>> some undeserving lout gets brutalized
>>> and another, equally undeserving lout
>>> gets over. And the same applies to the
>>> nicest, sweetest liberal democracy you
>>> can think of.
>>>
>>> Back when the church ruled things, there
>>> were lots of cynical scoundrels who made
>>> out like bandits, and those who hung out
>>> with them, who while not getting over, got
>>> theirs.
>>>
>>> Instead of blowing off the church and the
>>> government on the Internet right now, you'd
>>> be doing exactly the same at some grog bar.
>>>
>>> Or, as Yogi Berra said: "It's half of one
>>> and six dozen of the other."
>>
>>That's right. Just keep on being disenfranchised; things are obviously
>>fine the way they are.
>
> Maybe he's an existentialist.
Existentialists who talk political theory annoy the shit out of me.
Correspondent:: "nu-monet v7.0"
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:46:21 -0700
--------
Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
>
> That's right. Just keep on being
> disenfranchised; things are obviously
> fine the way they are.
Nothing changes with enfranchisement.
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of
government. It can only exist until the voters
discover that they can vote themselves largesse
from the public treasury. From that moment on,
the majority always votes for the candidates
promising the most benefits from the public
treasury with the result that a democracy always
collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a
dictatorship."
Alexander Fraser Tytler
1748-1813
A chain is not stronger than its weakest link.
Any system devised for government is no more
effective or permanent that the most insidious
corrupters of the system. Most people can be
persuaded that there is a social contract
between people, but that is only a starting
point. Everything beyond that is vested self
interest.
There are no gambling games where no one has
never tried, and usually succeeded, to cheat
the odds. In a way this is fine, because the
game inherently favors the house. If someone
can beat the system, then they deserve their
winnings beyond the statistical average, and
beyond reasonable luck.
All these same rules apply to government.
Fundamentally, government rules only by dint
of being the largest and most powerful criminal
enterprise in a nation. Its primary objective,
therefore, is to prevent competition. It is an
inherently criminal enterprise by the fact that
much of what it does must be done through some
degree of coercion. Once the social contract
is agreed to, it is binding on far more people
than those who agreed to it, so it ceases to be
a voluntary thing.
Next, government is determined throughout by
the will of those it governs. The people always
get, or evolve, the type of government they
desire. This rule applies to dictators, kings,
democracies, and even foreign invaders. This is
because most of what government does is boring
and ordinary. By doing it the way the people
want it done, to achieve cooperation, government
is trained in the way of the people. What people
have evolved in the past is a strong indicator
that much of what they really want is seriously
bad, stupid, xenophobic and sadistic.
"Democracy is based on the assumption that a
million men are wiser than one man. How's that
again? I missed something.
Autocracy is based on the assumption that one
man is wiser than a million men. Let's play that
over again, too. Who decides?"
-- Lazarus Long (Robert Heinlein)
--
"We're going to take things away from
you on behalf of the common good."
-- Hillary Clinton
Correspondent:: Cardinal Vertigo
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:22:02 GMT
--------
nu-monet v7.0 wrote:
> Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
>>
>> That's right. Just keep on being
>> disenfranchised; things are obviously
>> fine the way they are.
>
> Nothing changes with enfranchisement.
>
> "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of
> government. It can only exist until the voters
> discover that they can vote themselves largesse
> from the public treasury. From that moment on,
> the majority always votes for the candidates
> promising the most benefits from the public
> treasury with the result that a democracy always
> collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a
> dictatorship."
>
> Alexander Fraser Tytler
> 1748-1813
The quote's a common urban myth. I expected better from you.
Correspondent:: "nu-monet v7.0"
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:52:17 -0700
--------
Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
>
> nu-monet v7.0 wrote:
> > Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
> >>
> >> That's right. Just keep on being
> >> disenfranchised; things are obviously
> >> fine the way they are.
> >
> > Nothing changes with enfranchisement.
> >
> > "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of
> > government. It can only exist until the voters
> > discover that they can vote themselves largesse
> > from the public treasury. From that moment on,
> > the majority always votes for the candidates
> > promising the most benefits from the public
> > treasury with the result that a democracy always
> > collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a
> > dictatorship."
> >
> > Alexander Fraser Tytler
> > 1748-1813
>
> The quote's a common urban myth.
> I expected better from you.
No, you can't quite call it an urban myth. First of
all, he was a prolific author, *on that and similar
subjects*, and snopes.com only did a search on part
of his writings. But the quote may not even exist in
*his* writings, as he taught, and the quote may have
been taken by a student of his who published. He was
of the stature that his lectures would be a common
reference of fact.
If anything, I would suspect that the quote had been
corrupted in form, if not in meaning, which is commonly
the case, in that several of the words in seem to me to
be anachronistic.
However, all told, this was his subject and specialty.
Even if he didn't say this exact quote, his expertise
was like that of Arnold Toynbee, the downfall of
historical empires. One of his biggest contributions
was to propose the stages through which a nation goes
from founding to collapse.
BTW, you shouldn't reduce yourself to having expectations
of SubGenii. That is unseemly.
--
"YOU BELONG TO US NOW!"
"GET DOWN WITH MY SICKNESS!!"
--Kino Beman, brand name
Correspondent:: Cardinal Vertigo
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:59:27 GMT
--------
nu-monet v7.0 wrote:
> Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
>>
>> nu-monet v7.0 wrote:
>> > Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
>> >>
>> >> That's right. Just keep on being
>> >> disenfranchised; things are obviously
>> >> fine the way they are.
>> >
>> > Nothing changes with enfranchisement.
>> >
>> > "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of
>> > government. It can only exist until the voters
>> > discover that they can vote themselves largesse
>> > from the public treasury. From that moment on,
>> > the majority always votes for the candidates
>> > promising the most benefits from the public
>> > treasury with the result that a democracy always
>> > collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a
>> > dictatorship."
>> >
>> > Alexander Fraser Tytler
>> > 1748-1813
>>
>> The quote's a common urban myth.
>> I expected better from you.
>
> No, you can't quite call it an urban myth. First of
> all, he was a prolific author, *on that and similar
> subjects*, and snopes.com only did a search on part
> of his writings. But the quote may not even exist in
> *his* writings, as he taught, and the quote may have
> been taken by a student of his who published. He was
> of the stature that his lectures would be a common
> reference of fact.
"Often attributed to Alexander Fraser Tytler" would have been a better
attribution. But it doesn't really matter: see below.
> If anything, I would suspect that the quote had been
> corrupted in form, if not in meaning, which is commonly
> the case, in that several of the words in seem to me to
> be anachronistic.
>
> However, all told, this was his subject and specialty.
> Even if he didn't say this exact quote, his expertise
> was like that of Arnold Toynbee, the downfall of
> historical empires. One of his biggest contributions
> was to propose the stages through which a nation goes
> from founding to collapse.
A nation's slide down those stages can be halted in part by a competent
and equitable system of government, which just didn't exist in his day.
The day's best thinkers worked with the best intellectual tools they had
available, but they just didn't have the technology yet, so to speak.
I hate to be one of those "that dead old rich white guy is irrelevant"
people, but that dead old rich white guy is pretty irrelevant.
> BTW, you shouldn't reduce yourself to having expectations
> of SubGenii. That is unseemly.
Touche.
Correspondent:: "nu-monet v7.0"
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:33:25 -0700
--------
Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
>
> A nation's slide down those stages can be
> halted in part by a competent and equitable
> system of government, which just didn't exist
> in his day.
The fact of which they were very aware of in
his day, and why such great lengths were taken
in the US Constitution to create a federal
republican system of democracy. Their success
at the time was reinforced by the runaway French
democratic disaster, which horrified everybody.
As conspiracy theorists to this day point out,
the US founding fathers had no intention of real
democracy, and created such things as an electoral
college, a bicameral legislature and any number of
balance-of-power arrangements.
As far as the decline down stages is concerned,
the disciples of Toynbee are still trying to
figure out or rationalize why the US hasn't
fallen, something that must be a bitter pill for
them to swallow.
> I hate to be one of those "that dead old rich
> white guy is irrelevant" people, but that dead
> old rich white guy is pretty irrelevant.
However, their ideas are pervasive. The American
democrats have been a pain in the ass to the rest
of the world ever since its founding. Through
Teddy Roosevelt, the *expectation* was that through
some means, the President who try to advance the
cause of "the revolution" around the world, with
an evangelical approach.
For *lots* of Americans, worldwide democracy is
still the big goal for America, and they hold to
this just a fervently as any other kind of
extremist. Even the Presidents since FDR always
stick in some "spreading democracy" ideas into
their agendas.
Yes, those Illuminati dead white guys still rule.
Come to think of it, if you don't study their works
and derivative works, there just isn't a heck of a
lot left that's worth a hill of beans.
--
"In a race between someone
Trying to get me to care
And me not caring,
I would bet on me."
--nu-monet
Correspondent:: Cardinal Vertigo
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:34:43 GMT
--------
nu-monet v7.0 wrote:
> Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
>> I hate to be one of those "that dead old rich
>> white guy is irrelevant" people, but that dead
>> old rich white guy is pretty irrelevant.
>
> However, their ideas are pervasive.
Yes, and they need to be replaced.
Correspondent:: "nu-monet v7.0"
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:41:09 -0700
--------
Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
>
> >> old rich white guy is pretty irrelevant.
> >
> > However, their ideas are pervasive.
>
> Yes, and they need to be replaced.
Well, there's a problem there.
It was pretty well expressed by a picture I
saw of a banner at an anti-WTO or anti-G8
conference:
"Abolish Capitalism And Replace It With Something Good!"
Patrick Henry, the "Give me liberty or give me
death" guy was a terrific revolutionary. He could
stir up trouble all day long. However, after the
revolution was over, he had absolutely no idea of
what to do next. So he went to France to stir up
a revolution over there. They kicked him out, and
by the time he got back to the US, the help wanted
sign was no longer in the window.
As far as the rich old white guy ideas, 3000 years
of them. They have been tried and tested and many
have been discarded, but the remainder are survivors.
Any idea that seeks to supplant them must prove that
it is better than they are.
Just not liking them is not enough, any more than
not liking the fact that someone is pointing a gun
at you will make him stop doing it. The idea can't
just be a "good" idea, or just look good on paper.
It must be irresistable.
None so far have gotten close. Communism got
closest, Nazism got second closest. Both failed in
the long run.
--
"Getting shot at was not that bad,
just the getting shot part sucked"
-- U.S. Army Staff Sgt. Villafane
Correspondent:: Cardinal Vertigo
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:28:02 GMT
--------
nu-monet v7.0 wrote:
> Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
>>
>> >> old rich white guy is pretty irrelevant.
>> >
>> > However, their ideas are pervasive.
>>
>> Yes, and they need to be replaced.
>
> Well, there's a problem there.
>
> It was pretty well expressed by a picture I
> saw of a banner at an anti-WTO or anti-G8
> conference:
>
> "Abolish Capitalism And Replace It With Something Good!"
>
> Patrick Henry, the "Give me liberty or give me
> death" guy was a terrific revolutionary. He could
> stir up trouble all day long. However, after the
> revolution was over, he had absolutely no idea of
> what to do next. So he went to France to stir up
> a revolution over there. They kicked him out, and
> by the time he got back to the US, the help wanted
> sign was no longer in the window.
>
> As far as the rich old white guy ideas, 3000 years
> of them. They have been tried and tested and many
> have been discarded, but the remainder are survivors.
> Any idea that seeks to supplant them must prove that
> it is better than they are.
>
> Just not liking them is not enough, any more than
> not liking the fact that someone is pointing a gun
> at you will make him stop doing it. The idea can't
> just be a "good" idea, or just look good on paper.
> It must be irresistable.
>
> None so far have gotten close. Communism got
> closest, Nazism got second closest. Both failed in
> the long run.
I'd be willing to give social democracy a try, especially if we could
get a stakeholder-owned and tightly regulated market that still managed
to encourage the entrepreneurial spirit.
Best of both worlds, and it's never really been tried. It wouldn't be
Utopian, but it'd be a step in the right direction.
You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
Correspondent:: "nu-monet v7.0"
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:53:53 -0700
--------
Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
>
> I'd be willing to give social democracy a try,
> especially if we could get a stakeholder-owned
> and tightly regulated market that still managed
> to encourage the entrepreneurial spirit.
Sorry, but that's entirely rich old white guy stuff.
They invented the philosophies behind most of those
words in that paragraph.
There's even some conspiratorial suggestion that
the US came up with SD to neuter Europe, figuring
that it would be least likely to generate any
strong leader or movement who would make trouble
for the US. After WWI and WWII, a lot of Amis
just wanted Europe to kiss off.
It's also about to come crashing down. The Germans
especially are having severe intestinal cramps over
moving back to capitalism from an SD welfare state.
Recently, it became horribly exacerbated by the
double whammy of the US pulling out to the tune of
maybe $300B US/year, *and* having to fund their own
military, FROM SCRATCH. Which just about makes
them want to throw up.
Can a country or continent function with a tiny
army unless someone else protects them? Is the big
question. France and Britain might even lose their
seats on the UN Security Council because they are
missing what you need: a powerful economy, *and*
a powerful military, *and* a willingness to use
both of these resources to further your own and
international ends.
In December, a special UN board is planning to
reform the UNSC, most likely by adding India, which
has these three things. But it is becoming very
hard to justify either Britain or France being there.
So will SD survive in Europe? In name, perhaps.
Most likely it will become more like the democratic
party in the US.
--
"YOU BELONG TO US NOW!"
"GET DOWN WITH MY SICKNESS!!"
--Kino Beman, brand name
Correspondent:: Cardinal Vertigo
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 23:07:57 GMT
--------
nu-monet v7.0 wrote:
> Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
>>
>> I'd be willing to give social democracy a try,
>> especially if we could get a stakeholder-owned
>> and tightly regulated market that still managed
>> to encourage the entrepreneurial spirit.
>
> Sorry, but that's entirely rich old white guy stuff.
>
> They invented the philosophies behind most of those
> words in that paragraph.
Not in its most modern incarnation. The movement could use a new name,
actually.
> There's even some conspiratorial suggestion that
> the US came up with SD to neuter Europe, figuring
> that it would be least likely to generate any
> strong leader or movement who would make trouble
> for the US. After WWI and WWII, a lot of Amis
> just wanted Europe to kiss off.
>
> It's also about to come crashing down. The Germans
> especially are having severe intestinal cramps over
> moving back to capitalism from an SD welfare state.
> Recently, it became horribly exacerbated by the
> double whammy of the US pulling out to the tune of
> maybe $300B US/year, *and* having to fund their own
> military, FROM SCRATCH. Which just about makes
> them want to throw up.
Germany is a straw man, not a working model.
> Can a country or continent function with a tiny
> army unless someone else protects them? Is the big
> question. France and Britain might even lose their
> seats on the UN Security Council because they are
> missing what you need: a powerful economy, *and*
> a powerful military, *and* a willingness to use
> both of these resources to further your own and
> international ends.
A working model of SD would include a military strong enough to protect
a nation's borders.
> In December, a special UN board is planning to
> reform the UNSC, most likely by adding India, which
> has these three things. But it is becoming very
> hard to justify either Britain or France being there.
>
> So will SD survive in Europe? In name, perhaps.
> Most likely it will become more like the democratic
> party in the US.
I strongly doubt that.
Correspondent:: mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard Skull)
Date: 28 Oct 2004 23:24:37 GMT
--------
>It's also about to come crashing down. The Germans
>especially are having severe intestinal cramps over
>moving back to capitalism from an SD welfare state.
Funny alot of people have been saying that. But have you noticed how many US
companies have been bought out by Germans lately?
>Recently, it became horribly exacerbated by the
>double whammy of the US pulling out to the tune of
>maybe $300B US/year, *and* having to fund their own
>military, FROM SCRATCH. Which just about makes
>them want to throw up.
The Germany Army has a strength of approx. 400,000 plus or minus a few
thousand. This down form the 600,000 from the cold war era for West Germany. At
the higth of the Cold War, the US only had 200,000 Troops in Europe.
The Germany Army has been "funded" by the Germans sice the Nation was
re-instated in the late 1940's.
The Germans and French have been taken much heat becuase they "do not spend as
much" on Defense as the USA does. But its not quite accurate. The Europeans
just shop around to get the best deals.
They are not locked into domestic Arms dealer like the US is forced to.
So Germany can shop around and play Dasualt against Lockheed to get the best
price. They also reduce costs by pooling resources and stadardizing.
They also save Billions by updating older weapons platforms to modern stadards.
So a 25 year old Leo-II can still have up to date optics and electronics. The
Marder IFV is cheaper and better then the US Bradley.
And the Indian Air Force resently kick the US Air forces ass in a Exercise
using 40 Year old Mirage Aircraft retrofitted with State of the art Avionics
and Weapons systems (at a savings of serveral billions dollars)
>Can a country or continent function with a tiny
>army unless someone else protects them?
France has a standing Army over over 750,000 stationed in South America, North
Africa, the Pacific, and Indian Oceans. They are re-equipming most of their
"home" units with the new LeClerc tank and a new IFV. Their Overseas units tend
to be lighter and more mobile (like Rumsfield want to make to US Army, except
France does not wast Billions re-einventing the wheel)
They have only cut back in their Navy. They have reduced their Air Craft
Carriers. They used to have 3 conventional carriers. They now only have 2 and
serveral small "helocopter carriers"
But theya re adding serval new Nuclear Subs both attack and Ballistic over the
years. They also keep a fleet of modern State of the Art Deisel Subs to patrol
their Atlantic coast and the Med. Several have been retrofited with the
advanced airless propulsion system that allows the sub to attain the high
speeds of Nuclear subs at a fraction of the costs.
>Is the big
>question. France and Britain might even lose their
>seats on the UN Security Council because they are
>missing what you need: a powerful economy, *and*
>a powerful military, *and* a willingness to use
>both of these resources to further your own and
>international ends.
France and Briton once ran the middle east. They learned (at least France
learned) that the whole affair cannot be run by outsiders. In fact almost all
of the present Middle East troubles can be tied directly to the decisions made
by the British (and less so the French) 50 years ago. I guess Tony Blair was
sleeping when he learned the fall of the British Empire in school. Britain
could not afford to fight two world wars and keep her empire.
The loss of her colonies was the price they paid for winning WWII. If not for
the "empire troops", Britian would have been bleed dry by 1944.
France empire loss was more due to DeGaul's decision NOT to keep an Empire.
DeGaul was the one who gave up Algiers and Morroco willingly. He only fought at
Vietnam becuase of US pressure aginst the "communist treat".
>In December, a special UN board is planning to
>reform the UNSC, most likely by adding India, which
>has these three things. But it is becoming very
>hard to justify either Britain or France being there.
>
At the rate of the US is becmoming dependant on Foreign Capital to fund the
Stock Market as well as the Staggering Trade and Budget deficiet, we will not
qualify for Security Council status in 20 years.
>So will SD survive in Europe? In name, perhaps.
>Most likely it will become more like the democratic
>party in the US.
If you have noticed that Europe has been slowley regaining her pre-WW-II sttus
as the high etch inovator of the world. Prior to WW-II, the "silicon valley"
was in Germany and England.
The British perfected radar, the German perfected guided missiles, jet planes,
and advanced Submarines.
But the cost of WW-II on the ecomanies of both (as well as critical resources)
denied them the chance to exploit these inventions.
The US became the "high tech" leader after WW-II mostly by the fact its
infrastructure was untouched by the war. It also drew the top British Scientest
who developed these things. All teh brits best and brightest electronics wizzes
were evacuated to the US & canada after the fall of Europe. After the war,
Germany top expertes where "invited" (at the end of a bayonet) to the US. Every
advanced aircraft produced by the US up to the 1960's were based upon wind
tunnel tests doen by the Germans in the 1940's. The B-2 owes it design to the
"Flying Wing" which was based upon a design by the Germans for a long range
bomber.
Until the F-86 in the 1950's, no other Jet in the world could match the
performance of the ME-262 the Germans flew at the end of WW-II.
And the Germans who invented the V-2, also invented the SAM, the Smart Bomb,
the Wire guide anti-tank missle, luanched the US's first successful satillite,
Finally put and American (Al Sheperd) into Space, and design the Saturn V
rocket that sent the Apollo astronuats to the moon.
The German Type XXIII U-Boat was so advanced that every submarine build for the
next 20 years was copied off it. The worlds first Nuclear powered sub was
basicly a type XXIII retrofited with a reactor.
But The Europeans will dominate the world. Why? because they have Flu VAccine!
Correspondent:: polar bear
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:49:48 -0700
--------
In article <20041028192437.25764.00003006@mb-m07.aol.com>,
mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard Skull) wrote:
snip
>
> But The Europeans will dominate the world. Why? because they have Flu VAccine!
That, and they have the strongest currency, which allows them to export
inflation, the way the US did after WW2.
Ironically, Europe's protectionism works to their advantage in the
current scenario. With China pegged to a falling dollar, Chinese goods
are becoming cheaper in Euro terms. This allows substitution to offset
inflation caused by rising commodity prices (oil in particular) while
protectionism prevents the worst aspect of "free" trade, ie, the export
of manufacturing jobs and consequent loss of domestic purchasing power.
Europe has most of it's manufacturing base intact. It has more
managable debt levels, access to foreign markets in exchange for energy
and raw materials (Russia) and a far more educated population than the
USA. More importantly, it has the lessons of it's own history to draw
on. America, OTOH, is utterly incapable of learning from the past
because it constantly re-writes it to fit the present.
Two facts stand out from all the noise. 1) America went to war on the
flimsiest of pretexts. This demonstrates that desperation is taking
hold. 2) Europe largely declined to participate. This indicates
they are now capable of going it alone. A bit early perhaps, but
they'll meet the challenge because they have no other choice.
Just as Germany was played off against Russia, America is now being
played off against China. The two will exhaust themselves, and Russia
and Europe will emerge triumphant (for a time).
Cardinal Vertigo should move to Europe. What he envisions is already
taking shape there. As for the Europeans this, the Europeans that.
Forget it. That's just Wall St. talking their book. Europe has
already made many of the adjustments that America has yet to face up
to. On the contrary, America is becoming more of a theocracy with each
passing day.
pb
Correspondent:: Cardinal Vertigo
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:25:35 GMT
--------
polar bear wrote:
> Cardinal Vertigo should move to Europe. What he envisions is already
> taking shape there. As for the Europeans this, the Europeans that.
> Forget it. That's just Wall St. talking their book. Europe has
> already made many of the adjustments that America has yet to face up
> to. On the contrary, America is becoming more of a theocracy with each
> passing day.
Yeah, I know, but all my friends are here, young American women like to
shave, and I feel like I still owe America something. Europe isn't
exactly a utopian model anyway.
If neoconservatives manage to turn the US into a one-party corporate
oligarchy and/or theocracy as seems to be their goal, I'll probably give
Australia a try. Better weather, better politics, and I hear the people
are pretty cool.
Correspondent:: polar bear
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:06:52 -0700
--------
In article <3augd.15345$oc1.14697@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com>, Cardinal
Vertigo wrote:
> polar bear wrote:
>
> > Cardinal Vertigo should move to Europe. What he envisions is already
> > taking shape there. As for the Europeans this, the Europeans that.
> > Forget it. That's just Wall St. talking their book. Europe has
> > already made many of the adjustments that America has yet to face up
> > to. On the contrary, America is becoming more of a theocracy with each
> > passing day.
>
> Yeah, I know, but all my friends are here, young American women like to
> shave, and I feel like I still owe America something. Europe isn't
> exactly a utopian model anyway.
Hey, it's a work in progress. What do you want? A fait accompli?
Comparatively speaking, European women are a better investment. They
don't mind if you don't own a car, and they're more likely to split the
tab (heh..ah heh heh). That hair comes off fairly quickly too, once
they realize what's in store. Purely anecdotal of course, but in my
experience the order is: European, Asian, Latin, American, African.
Not a Ron Jeremy level sampling by any stretch, but enough to make
reasonably valid statistical observations.
>
> If neoconservatives manage to turn the US into a one-party corporate
> oligarchy and/or theocracy as seems to be their goal, I'll probably give
> Australia a try. Better weather, better politics, and I hear the people
> are pretty cool.
Australia? Strewth! Nothing there but ants and flies mate.
Oh, and make sure you tap your shoes out in the morning.
Those funnel web spiders are nasty business.
pb
Correspondent:: "nu-monet v7.0"
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:43:49 -0700
--------
polar bear wrote:
>
> Purely anecdotal of course, but in my
> experience the order is: European, Asian,
> Latin, American, African.
I would rearrange the order for each:
test drive, lease or own.
For test drive: Latin, American, African,
European, Asian.
For lease: Asian, European, African,
American, Latin.
To own: Asian, American, European, Latin,
and African.
--
"Money can't buy you happiness,
but when you're poor, you can't
buy shit, and nobody will loan
you happiness."
--nu-monet
Correspondent:: polar bear
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 00:58:45 -0700
--------
In article <4182AB85.6D24@succeeds.com>, "nu-monet v7.0"
wrote:
> polar bear wrote:
> >
> > Purely anecdotal of course, but in my
> > experience the order is: European, Asian,
> > Latin, American, African.
>
> I would rearrange the order for each:
> test drive, lease or own.
>
> For test drive: Latin, American, African,
> European, Asian.
>
> For lease: Asian, European, African,
> American, Latin.
>
> To own: Asian, American, European, Latin,
> and African.
My first wife was Spanish, so I had Latin AND European covered in one
package. Incidently, she used to rip her leg hairs out with beeswax.
OUCH! She actually drew blood. Nice and smooth though.
Speaking of Europeans, here I go beaking off about them, and what
happens but no more than 6 hours later I meet this gorgeous Croatian
woman. We talked for half an hour and I'll be seeing her again. Not by
design - it just happens that our paths cross.
I must be cursed. I thought I was long over this sort of thing, then
out of nowhere, WHAM! Now I'm looking forward to seeing her again and
I can't stop myself. Of course she's single and lives alone. No
boyfriend in the picture either.
This is trouble, no doubt about it.
pb
Correspondent:: mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard Skull)
Date: 30 Oct 2004 01:51:58 GMT
--------
>Yeah, I know, but all my friends are here, young American women like to
>shave, and I feel like I still owe America something. Europe isn't
>exactly a utopian model anyway.
>
Well, the Euro Women hair is not as blatent as unshaven American women becuase:
Most Amercan Women shaved at least for a while. The process of shaving makes
the hair grow back stiffer and darker.
Most of Euro women will bleach their leg/put hairs. Makes them hard to see
unless you are up close. And the hiar tends to be finer and softer.
>If neoconservatives manage to turn the US into a one-party corporate
>oligarchy and/or theocracy as seems to be their goal, I'll probably give
>Australia a try. Better weather, better politics, and I hear the people
>are pretty cool.
They neo-cons seem to think EVERYONE is overpaid, excpet them. While the
'masses' cry for increase in minium wage, they are suferinf! Forced to survive
on a few million a year!
Almost all of US industry is gone. What is left is dirctly/indirectly linked to
government spending. Defense Contractors, high way contractors, an their
suppliers.
GM & Ford have been steadily losing market share compared to cheper imports
form Mexico & Korea. Japan, due to its reputation for quality had a loyal
market base that are willing to pay the extra costs for their products.
Last year, a few were expecting Ford to file Chapter 11 to survive.
GM only makes money becuase it is a diverisfied company not dependent on autos
alone. Also GM has been depending on their European and Japanese engineers to
design most of their newer cars.
The new Colorado was designed by Isuzu
The New Saturns are Opals
The new mid-sized cars are built on an establish Saab Chassis.
The Pontiac Vibe is a Toyota Matrix in disguise.
The New Chevy Aveo was designed and is built in Korea.
Ford has been surviving on its SUV sales alone. If you have noticed the price
of gas recently. Ford is sweating bullets as they are stuck with a line of gas
hogs (as is Chrysler) just as the market is looking at fuel ecomany again. If
gas continues to go up, the governemt might have to bail out Ford like they did
Chrysler in the 80's.
MSHOTZ: The Post Post Modern Man
"War hath no Fury like a non-combatants"
Charles E. Montague
Correspondent:: nenslo
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 19:19:08 -0700
--------
"Rev. Richard Skull" wrote:
> The process of shaving makes
> the hair grow back stiffer and darker.
I can't believe you could possibly be STUPID enough to believe that.
Even if you are only marginally literate I know you are not a complete moron.
Correspondent:: "nu-monet v7.0"
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 20:09:30 -0700
--------
Rev. Richard Skull wrote:
>
> They neo-cons seem to think EVERYONE is
> overpaid, excpet them.
You realize, of course, that there are a grand
sum total of 25 or so neo-cons in the entire
US.
Isn't it kind of stretching things a bit to
assume that they like, control everything?
It just sounds more convincing if you say
Illuminati, or Trilateral Commission, or the
Bilderbergers or something. You know, who have
like over a hundred members.
--
"YOU BELONG TO US NOW!"
"GET DOWN WITH MY SICKNESS!!"
--Kino Beman, brand name
Correspondent:: mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard Skull)
Date: 30 Oct 2004 18:05:12 GMT
--------
>Rev. Richard Skull wrote:
>>
>> They neo-cons seem to think EVERYONE is
>> overpaid, excpet them.
>
>You realize, of course, that there are a grand
>sum total of 25 or so neo-cons in the entire
>US.
>
>Isn't it kind of stretching things a bit to
>assume that they like, control everything?
>
>It just sounds more convincing if you say
>Illuminati, or Trilateral Commission, or the
>Bilderbergers or something. You know, who have
>like over a hundred members.
>
You need to talk to the new President of our company.
Accoding to him, if you drive a old beater of a car its because your are too
lazy to buy a new one.
And if you live in amobile home, it has nothing to due to the cost of living or
the fact you can't seem to find a job that pays over $8.00 and hour. It becuase
you are lazy. UNlike him whose paid for his education. He was not lazy!
He seem to think its funny when I expalin why Rumsfield IS responsible to what
happens good or bad in Iraq. Seeing he was not lazy like me, and did not have
to join the military to get a education, and did not earn a commison via OCS
like me. He thinks that I am somehow a "mixed up libeal" when I say the Senior
Officer (and Rummy IS the senior Officer of all US forces excpet for Bush) IS
WHOLEY AND FULLY repsonsible for the actions and conduct of those under his
command.
And those Evangelicals I worked with at the Gas company who say that Isreal
should just kill all the Arabs and take over the whole reagion. I'm sure they
do not agree with Feith, Pearl and Rummy at all.
There are more then "70" Neo-cons.
The whole of the so called "think Tanks" the right have set up for the past 20
some years are nothing but sunsidized work for those Neo-Cons who can't make a
living out side of Government. They have been pushing the policies for the last
30 years that have lead the Ismalic world to wage a war against us.
The is a war against the US. But not based uon a nation or Polictical Leader
like Iraq or Saddam. It is based upon the required "duty" of Muslims to defend
their faith against anyone who threatens it. Thsi duty is one of the Pillars of
Islam. And Islam is almost a "nation" upon itself. Under Islam, all Muslems no
matter their skin color and tribe are expected to support and protect each
other. When an outsider threatens them, all alble body Muslems are expected to
take up amrs against the attacker or provide support for the fighters.
For the past 30 years, the US has pushed Ismalic Nations around. Over through
those Islamic based nations to force "secular laws" upon their people. We have
proped up brutal dictactors who mouth Islamic values and phrases, but are
corrupt and tend to skim alla their nations assests into their personal Swiss
bank Accounts.
And I am not just making this up. It come right out of the Book "Imperial
Hiberis" written by a carrier intelligence officer who think Reagan was THE
Greatest President in histroy, even if he did trade arms for hostigaes and
support Isreal when it invaded Lebonen,and arm Saddam while selling TOW missile
to the Iranians while they were both fighting each other.
There are ony 70 or so Neo-Cons in the governemnt, yes. But theya re all in the
DoD. and the DoD ran rough over the Dept. of State and the CIA prior to this
splended little war in Iraq.
After the Czar was over thrown in the February Revolution, the new Government
formed shared power by appointing all the diverse political parties to differnt
Ministries.
The Bolsheviks, in their humble way, only took over the Ministry of Defense and
the Secret Police. Theyleft all the other Ministries to the varous Socialist
fractions.
Only after the October Revolution did everyone realise the mistake.
MSHOTZ: The Post Post Modern Man
"War hath no Fury like a non-combatants"
Charles E. Montague
Correspondent:: "nu-monet v7.0"
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 11:23:47 -0700
--------
Rev. Richard Skull wrote:
>
> ...And if you live in amobile home, it has
> nothing to due to the cost of living or
> the fact you can't seem to find a job that
> pays over $8.00 and hour. It becuase you are
> lazy. UNlike him whose paid for his education.
> He was not lazy!
A friend of mine once found a journal in a dry
riverbottom. It was full of detailed notes and
references to federal statutes about how the
writer had been persecuted by the FBI and the
local power company. He even had several drafts
of letters to the US Postal Inspector who he was
begging to make them stop reading his mail.
With further reading, at least by the third
paragraph, I quickly determined that he was a
kook. But from that point on what he wrote was
entertaining, because I no longer had to take
anything he wrote seriously, or as the product
of a normal brain. By the sixth paragraph it
was boring again, because it was just the same
thing, expressed differently. And it just went
on like that, never really ending, never solving
anything, and full of pain.
It's awful hard to look in a mirror and see
ourselves as others see us. And yet, as many
people like that, who live in terribly complex
states of delusion; people who I remember by
nickname, like "The rock guy", and "St. George",
and "The wheelchair dude", and "fingers", and
"banjo man & wolfus (his dog)"; more than
anything else I see as tragic figures.
Tragic because nobody sane understands them, or
even after a short time, has any interest in
what they have to say. Because they are kooks.
Have a nice day.
--
"I wish to thank those who have been
admirably relentless in reminding us
when the line between doing a good
thing and thinking a bad thing has
been crossed."
-- Frank DiGiovanni
Correspondent:: Cardinal Vertigo
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 19:00:58 GMT
--------
nu-monet v7.0 wrote:
> It's awful hard to look in a mirror and see
> ourselves as others see us.
The other side of that coin is that it's also hard to look in a mirror
and see that your head is buried in the sand.
> Have a nice day.
Back at ya.
Correspondent:: Cardinal Vertigo
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 18:46:10 GMT
--------
nu-monet v7.0 wrote:
> Rev. Richard Skull wrote:
>>
>> They neo-cons seem to think EVERYONE is
>> overpaid, excpet them.
>
> You realize, of course, that there are a grand
> sum total of 25 or so neo-cons in the entire
> US.
Surely you troll.
Correspondent:: polar bear
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 00:38:58 -0700
--------
In article <20041029215158.24357.00002550@mb-m16.aol.com>,
mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard Skull) wrote:
snip
>
> GM only makes money becuase it is a diverisfied company not dependent on autos
> alone. Also GM has been depending on their European and Japanese engineers to
> design most of their newer cars.
>
GMAC is doing most of the heavy lifting these days.
A bit of Wall St humor:
GM made it's numbers on the finance side.
How'd they do that at zero percent?
Volume.
pb
Correspondent:: hellpopehuey@subgenius.com (HellPopeHuey)
Date: 27 Oct 2004 17:28:47 -0700
--------
"nu-monet v7.0" wrote in message news:<417FEE61.7015@succeeds.com>...
> BTW, you shouldn't reduce yourself to having expectations
> of SubGenii. That is unseemly.
Oh, that's not strictly true. You can always expect Joy D'Veeve & Wei
to be engaging sweethearts unless they have the snortin' flu and
almost any other member to be a Ghidrah-sized turd at the drop of a
plop. There are no absolutes, even in chemistry and physics. Why, once
NENSLO was actually nice to me. That proves it, EIEIEIEEIEI!!!
--
HellPope Huey
This Halloween, I'm going as a drunken slut.
It worked great last year
and the costume looks exactly like my street clothes.
"If we're going to be damned,
let's be damned for what we really are. "
- "Star Trek: The Next Generation"
"We must find another brain."
- "Frankenstein"
GIVE BUSH A BRAIN game!
http://www.imgag.com/product/full/ap/3067907/graphic1.swf
Correspondent:: "ghost"
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 01:04:54 GMT
--------
Shit, I thought this was going to be about some total all-out war movie.
Correspondent:: "LimpBisket"
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:57:29 -0400
--------
"Den Mu" wrote in message
news:426f26af.0410261304.5fa65f58@posting.google.com...
> May the State win!
>
> Fuck the Church
Masturbation for xians: http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/4884.htm
(....he CONDONES and ENCOURAGES IT! woooo hoooo!!!!!)
Correspondent:: "Rev. Beergoggles"
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:02:28 -0500
--------
LimpBisket did pass the time by typing:
> "Den Mu" wrote in message
> news:426f26af.0410261304.5fa65f58@posting.google.com...
>> May the State win!
>>
>> Fuck the Church
>
> Masturbation for xians: http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/4884.htm
>
> (....he CONDONES and ENCOURAGES IT! woooo hoooo!!!!!)
"If masturbation is addictive, as with all addictions there
will be withdrawal symptoms. It will be hard for you. "
...
yep
...
--
rbg