[NOTE from Modemac: In both HIGH WEIRDNESS BY MAIL and THREE-FISTED TALES
OF "BOB," Stang gives attention to Waves Forest and his promotion of
"oxygen therapy" as a way of fighting just about every major affliction
known to man, including AIDS. However, it should be noted that when it
comes to matters such as this, you should take every 'fact' presented with
a grain of salt. Many promotions for oxygen therapy fail to acknowledge
the drawbacks to this treatment, including the appearances of embolysms
(bubbles in the bloodstream), which are FATAL. This subject was discussed
here on alt.slack several months ago along with a discussion of the Waves
Forest' story "'Bob' and the Oxygen Wars" in THREE-FISTED TALES. The
general consensus - which is still open for debate, if you want to agree
or disagree with this argument - was that oxygen therapy is a load of
hogwash and that Waves Forest's story was fun science fiction but nothing
else. If nothing else, however, I did discover that application of
hydrogen peroxide makes a pretty good treatment for acne.]
[ Article crossposted from misc.health.alternative ]
[ Author was amadis@io.org ]
[ Posted on Fri, 10 Feb 1995 09:12:32 UNDEFINED ]
I wanted to take the opportunity to make you aware of my area on the Net.
It deals with Oxygen Therapies and the associated Oxy Therapy Mailing List.
In a recent letter from the Deputy Surgeon General of Canada, Cmdre.
Michael Shannon, he said "...I firmly believe that ozone therapy has
potential to play a valuable role in the medical management of AIDS."
Ozone and Oxygen Therapies is being used against many immune suppressive
conditions as well as many forms of Cancer.
Contained within my Web site are over 130 articles on Ozone and Oxygen
Therapies, with over 85 being abstracts from different world-wide studies
which have been conducted.
It is my goal to make people aware of this therapy, so they may in turn
make informed decisions about their health.
I encourage you to browse my site and make your own decision as to the
validity of this therapy. It is located at:
http://www.io.org/~amadis/Overview.html
Thank you for your time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: i.stang@metronet.com (Rev. Ivan Stang)
I wish I'd been in on that discussion. In my relatively uninformed
opinion, I too think the oxygenation therapy should be taken with a
serious grain of salt. When it came time to decide on which stories "made
it" in 3-Fisted Tales, the S&S editor, Sydny Miner, and I both felt like
it would be sort of immoral for us NOT to include that one. And I still
feel that way. But I did the peroxide thing myself for awhile and didn't
notice a lick of dif. I've run into people who said it was a bad idea --
free radicals and so on. I'm not really qualified to make any kind of
judgement on medical matters but my feeling is... CURE-ALL?? GIMME A
BREAK!! Still, Waves' story was COOL AS HELL and no doubt where there's
smoke, there's some kind of smoldering coal.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Oxygen Therapy Web Site
From: ljduchez@en.com (Lou Duchez)
As I recall, these points came up:
- As Modemac points out, ya don't want gases percolating in your blood.
- The (somewhat) stable version of oxygen in our atmosphere is O2: two
oxygen molecules with their hooks in each other. That extra atom of
oxygen in hydrogen peroxide, when released, is EXTREMELY reactive,
which is another way of saying it's a caustic chemical of the highest
order. A drop bleaches your skin and scalds your tongue. You really
want any of that mixing in your innards?
- As for drinking peroxide: it's a long long trip from your mouth to
your blood stream. Smart money says all the "extra" oxygen will have
escaped long before your small intestine.
> GIMME A
> BREAK!! Still, Waves' story was COOL AS HELL and no doubt where there's
> smoke, there's some kind of smoldering coal.
Indeed, no one denies that it was a cool cool tale. Just not necessarily
grounded in science.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Oxygen Therapy Web Site
From: xdcrlab@quake.net (Mike Davis)
In article <Ln$GlWY6aKb8075yn@en.com>, ljduchez@en.com (Lou Duchez) wrote:
qoute deleted
> - As Modemac points out, ya don't want gases percolating in your blood.
If you bother to find out the facts you would find out that the protocols
developed do not allow this to happen.
>
> - The (somewhat) stable version of oxygen in our atmosphere is O2: two
> oxygen molecules with their hooks in each other. That extra atom of
> oxygen in hydrogen peroxide, when released, is EXTREMELY reactive,
> which is another way of saying it's a caustic chemical of the highest
> order. A drop bleaches your skin and scalds your tongue. You really
> want any of that mixing in your innards?
>
Get real, .1% peroxide will *not* do this. When that atom of oxygen is
released it is at the site of an enzyme where it hangs around waiting for
another atom of oxygen and then O** & O** >> O2** and because H2O2 is also
a reductant it can react with that atom of oxygen should it get crazy O**
& H2O2 >> H2O & O2
This is from Chem 1A:
"Pure H2O2 decomposes explosively at temperatures near the boiling point.
H2O2 is thermodynamically unstable and capable of disproportioning into
H2O and O2. It can act as an oxidizing agent as well as a reducing
agent. Oxidations by H2O2 in acid solution are relatively slow, but in
basic solution they are very fast. It follows that peroxides are more
stable when kept under acid conditions."
--- Goldberg & Dillard, College Chemistry, 1974 pg 503
That .1% peroxide solution disproportionates very slowly at its boiling
point and the physiologic pH is about 7.8, slightly basic, are you getting
a clue yet? There are even *natural* sources of extranenous H2O2, various
parasites produce it but don't have the breakdown systems in place so the
host gets the benefit of handling it.
> - As for drinking peroxide: it's a long long trip from your mouth to
> your blood stream. Smart money says all the "extra" oxygen will have
> escaped long before your small intestine.
>
Guess again.
> Indeed, no one denies that it was a cool cool tale. Just not necessarily
> grounded in science.
>
Don't look to Waves and McCabe for *Science*, look to Halliwell and
Ramasarma. The web site has both but the scales tip to the science, check
it out.
--
Mike Davis))) xdcrlab@quake.net))) Ultrasonic Transducer Solutions
"The stupid opinions expressed here are my own and should not be construed as superior to the stupid opinions of others. EITA"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ljduchez@en.com (Lou Duchez)
In article <xdcrlab-1702951457490001@xdcrlab.com>,
xdcrlab@quake.net (Mike Davis) wrote:
> If you bother to find out the facts you would find out that the protocols
> developed do not allow this to happen.
But are there not intravenous solutions of hydrogen peroxide?
> > - The (somewhat) stable version of oxygen in our atmosphere is O2: two
> > oxygen molecules with their hooks in each other. That extra atom of
> > oxygen in hydrogen peroxide, when released, is EXTREMELY reactive,
> > which is another way of saying it's a caustic chemical of the highest
> > order. A drop bleaches your skin and scalds your tongue. You really
> > want any of that mixing in your innards?
> >
> Get real, .1% peroxide will *not* do this.
That's true, a .1% peroxide solution will not be particularly caustic.
In fact, it won't be particularly ANYTHING. I'd put a lot more faith
in an oxygen tent than in your .1% solution. At least you are exposing
a great number of (relatively) stable oxygen molecules to an enormous
amount of blood that way, using techniques that the body is built to
withstand.
> When that atom of oxygen is
> released it is at the site of an enzyme where it hangs around waiting for
> another atom of oxygen
Them oxygen atoms is smart! They don't react with nothin' but themselves!
My experience is that H2O2 is a caustic substance at levels recommended for
therapy (really, just good-health-maintenance), which means that those
oxygens aren't waiting to pair up and do-si-do. They'll attach to durn-
near anything in my body.
> That .1% peroxide solution disproportionates very slowly at its boiling
> point and the physiologic pH is about 7.8, slightly basic, are you getting
> a clue yet?
I have plenty of clues, thank you. .1% is not a heavy enough concentration
to give you anywhere as much oxygen as an oxygen tank can provide. As for
the caustic nature of H2O2, I went to a health food store and bought some
H2O2 and a booklet on H2O2 therapy. I tried the 25-drops-in-a-6-oz.-glass-
of-water-for-good-health plan and I found that it had the nasty side-effect
of burning my throat. And they said that I'd be working my way up from
there! I think not.
Note that the caustic action means that the extra oxygens were at work
on my throat, not turning into O2 like a well-behaved miracle cure, but
latching on to whatever they could.
And THIS is science: drinking fluids myself and noting the results.
> > - As for drinking peroxide: it's a long long trip from your mouth to
> > your blood stream. Smart money says all the "extra" oxygen will have
> > escaped long before your small intestine.
> >
> Guess again.
Okay, SMART money SAYS all THE "extra" OXYGEN will HAVE escaped LONG
before YOUR small INTESTINE. Did I express this guess better?
I have a glass of diluted H2O2, and I can't even keep it in my throat
for 2 seconds without it burning. Sounds to me like all that "extra"
oxygen is as eager as all-get-out to react with purt-near anything it
encounters. Why do you think they call it free radicals?
So I must conclude with my empirical evidence that H2O2 is not at all
a "smart bomb" or a "magic bullet". It's water with free radicals
a-plenty waiting to wreak havoc on whatever tissue they can find.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: amadis@io.org
I am not medically trained, so I can only speak of what I've read, and
what I've seen. I have seen many debates on the issues of both ozone
and hydrogen peroxide in sci.med.aids, sci.skeptic, alt.med.cfs, etc.
I am not attempting to stimulate a debate here in
misc.health.alternative, but I couldn't let the comments pass without
saying something.
We are all the controllers of our own destiny. We investigate, and
then make informed decisions. If that were not the case, discussions
within this newsgroup wouldn't exist. It is unfortunate that many
turn to alternative healing once their bodies have been raped by the
medical profession.
For some strange reason, many within the medical community feel that
they are different. They make judgment calls on things that they know
nothing about. Just because one is a M.D. or Ph.D., doesn't
necessarily grant them god like status. How many valid medical
breakthroughs have gone ignored, simply because they don't fall within
the pharmaceutical approach they've been taught to uphold. We are
starting to ask hard questions of our medical profession, questions
that aren't being answered.
We are fortunate that some within the profession know the potential,
and are exploring it. As in my previous message, the Deputy Surgeon
General of Canada is one of those explorers.
I won't go into quoting the scientific aspects of Oxygen Therapies, as
I feel that the Web site which I've created can do that far better
than I. It would be nice if those that condone this therapy, would
read the articles before making judgment calls.
I know of at least 10 people personally that are using Oxygen
Therapies, specifically ozone. I have had over 50 direct IV
injections; my partner has had over 400. No embolisms, no drooling,
no retarded vegetables, and no side effects.
amadis@io.org
http://www.io.org/~amadis/Overview.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: xdcrlab@quake.net (Mike Davis)
In article <2QJHlWY6aaaH075yn@en.com>, ljduchez@en.com (Lou Duchez) wrote:
>
> But are there not intravenous solutions of hydrogen peroxide?
There are most certainly are and they are administered by physiscians
trained in this sort of thing. Try Wm. Campbell Douglas, M.D., Hydrogen
Peroxide: MEDICAL MIRACLE on for size.
>
> That's true, a .1% peroxide solution will not be particularly caustic.
> In fact, it won't be particularly ANYTHING. I'd put a lot more faith
> in an oxygen tent than in your .1% solution. At least you are exposing
> a great number of (relatively) stable oxygen molecules to an enormous
> amount of blood that way, using techniques that the body is built to
> withstand.
>
Oxygen tent? Try hyperbaric chamber and you would be close.
> Them oxygen atoms is smart! They don't react with nothin' but themselves!
Not a matter of being smart, protective systems with a survival advantage
get passed on. In this case a catalase enzyme that associates with O**
radical until another H2O2 comes along is a definite advantage than one
that lets it go flyingoff to reek havoc, which is not to say a O** doesn't
get loose once in a while.
> .1% is not a heavy enough concentration
> to give you anywhere as much oxygen as an oxygen tank can provide. As for
> the caustic nature of H2O2, I went to a health food store and bought some
> H2O2 and a booklet on H2O2 therapy. I tried the 25-drops-in-a-6-oz.-glass-
> of-water-for-good-health plan and I found that it had the nasty side-effect
> of burning my throat. And they said that I'd be working my way up from
> there! I think not.
You just contradicted yourself, you drank .1-.2% when you did this. This
amount would produce on the order of a 3/4 liter of O2** at atmospheric.
And you were supposed to start with one drop and work up to 25, doing so
would have enabled a process called enzymatic induction which produces
increased protective enzymes among other things so you protect yourself as
you increse the amount. I guess you have to be true toi the u=subgenius
thing.
>
> And THIS is science: drinking fluids myself and noting the results.
At this level it is more psuedoscience.
>
> I have a glass of diluted H2O2, and I can't even keep it in my throat
> for 2 seconds without it burning. Sounds to me like all that "extra"
> oxygen is as eager as all-get-out to react with purt-near anything it
> encounters. Why do you think they call it free radicals?
You didn't use the proper protocol and had you noticed belching 3/4 of a
liter of gas you would have had a legitimate observation to back your
hypothesis. Did you ever consider this action in your throat might be the
peroxide working against bacteria there?
>
> So I must conclude with my empirical evidence that H2O2 is not at all
> a "smart bomb" or a "magic bullet". It's water with free radicals
> a-plenty waiting to wreak havoc on whatever tissue they can find.
H2O2 may well not be a "smart bomb" or a "Magic Bullet" but not based on
your poor evidence and your nonsense conclusion don't even come up to sub
genius.
--
Mike Davis))) xdcrlab@quake.net))) Ultrasonic Transducer Solutions
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bdb@shadow.net (Doktor BDB)
ljduchez@en.com (Lou Duchez) wrote:
>Them oxygen atoms is smart! They don't react with nothin' but themselves!
>My experience is that H2O2 is a caustic substance at levels recommended for
>therapy (really, just good-health-maintenance), which means that those
>oxygens aren't waiting to pair up and do-si-do. They'll attach to durn-
>near anything in my body.
Ha! You think that's caustic? Try taking a LARGE jug of hydrogen peroxide,
and boiling it in a STAINLESS steel pot over low heat for several hours.
The resultant tiny bit of solution (bring it down to 5% of it's original
volume) is so damn caustic, a tiny drop on the tip of your finger will cause
the skin exposed to CRYSTALIZE and DROP RIGHT OFF!
I've done it, I know. I was an extremely cruel child at time, finding new
and insidious ways (with other non-realized Yetisyn children) to destroy
smaller life forms. In this case, our target was a SALAMANDER! We both
donned rubber gloves, and transfered the solution to a squirt gun (a really
high quality one, we didn't want any to leak).
Slowly, capriciously, we stalked in my friend's cellar, lifting cobblestones
(I lived on Cape Cod at the time [q.v. my home page]) and looking for a
target. HA! We found one, and SHOT!
That salamander turned to damn STONE nearly instantly! My friend picked it
up, and if I remember collectly, he LAUNCHED the petrified salamander at the
nearest wall, and it shattered into thousands of pieces (only 4,783 were
ever recovered, and the black box was not located).
Joy...
Doktor BDB
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ljduchez@en.com (Lou Duchez)
In article <amadis.10.005D9185@io.org>, amadis@io.org wrote:
> We are all the controllers of our own destiny. We investigate, and
> then make informed decisions.
Good advice! It should be pointed out that, much like herbs, oxygen
cannot be trademarked or copyrighted. As a result, no medical company
has sufficient monetary motivation to pay for all the studies needed to
validate the various therapies, and in fact most companies would have
incentive to HINDER the acceptance of a simple cure ...
> I know of at least 10 people personally that are using Oxygen
> Therapies, specifically ozone. I have had over 50 direct IV
> injections; my partner has had over 400. No embolisms, no drooling,
> no retarded vegetables, and no side effects.
Ozone, our old pal O3, is a bit different from H2O2. How much its
effects differ, I cannot say. But I don't have any personal experiences
with O3, so I'll keep an open mind. Agreed, the promise of oxygen
therapies is impressive, and cleanly logical. ("Almost too clean",
he mused, ducking just as a bullet whizzed by ...)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: xdcrlab@quake.net (Mike Davis)
Hope evryone had an enjoyable weekend!
Concentration of diluted H2O2:
[1.25ml (25 drops) x 35%] 180ml = .24% for 6 oz
[1.25ml (25 drops) x 35%] 240ml = .18% for 8 oz
Lou, your powers of observation are amazing, you can tell a radical from a
endotoxin. Interesting that the FDA approves ten times the strength for
mouthwash and gargle, it is pretty nasty at that conc. and I cut it 5-10
times for this use. If you read the history of the medical use of H2O2
you will find your example repeated, improper use and condemnation.
Amount of O2 gas from 1.25ml 35% H2O2:
1.25ml x .35 x 1.45g/ml = .63g H2O2
.63g 34g/mole 2 = .0093 mole O2
V = .0093mole x .0821 x 300deg. 1 atm = .23 liter
.23 x three daily = .69 lliter
I must apologize Lou, my reference to 3/4 liter was for three doses a day,
you would have had to have belched only 1/4 liter to be right.
O2 gas from H2O2 Experiment:
Take two glasses, in one place a contact lens cleaning catalyst disc, in
the other place several ounces of chlorine free water add 1.25 ml(25
drops) of 35% H2O2 and mix. Pour the diluted H2O2 into the glass with the
catalyst, cover this glass with an empty plastic bag and seal in place
with a rubber band. Let it sit for 24 hours and watch what happens.
Dennis McClain-Furmanski:
>Oh, the folly of quoting freshman texts. It leaves out intermediate steps.
>2 H202 --> 2 H2O + 2 O
>2 O --> O2
Not so much folly Dennis, the discussion at that point was oxidation,
reduction and reactivity. You would be surprized how many are unaware of
the reducant properties.
So from sophomore chemistry we have: (the dismutation reaction)
H2O2 & 2H+ & 2e- >> 2H20, Eo = +1.77
H202 >> 02 & 2H+ & 2e-, Eo = -.69 V
________________________________________________________
2 H2O2 >> 2H2O & O2 Eo = +1.08 V
With catalase there is also a two step reaction, the first an oxidation,
the second a reduction as below. I read something about the reactants
having a preference with staying associated with the respective enzymes
but haven't been able to dig it up.
H2O2 as radical quencher:
O** & 2H+ & 2e- >> H2O, Eo = +.816 V
H202 >> 02 & 2H+ & 2e-, Eo = -.69 V
________________________________________________________
O** & H2O2 >> H2O & O2, Eo = +.126V
Dennis McClain-Furmanski:
>And in general, the whole concept of free O conflicts with the
anti-oxidant evidence.
Check the ref below. When you consider all of the electron transfer and
antioxidant recycling going on the problem is reduced to the cells
reductive capacity and then it starts to make sense.
References:
For adaptive mechanism to oxidative stress and other:
T. Ramasarma. H2O2 has a role in cellular regulation. Indian Journal of
Biochemistry & Biophysics. Vol. 27, October 1990, pp. 269-274
--
Mike Davis))) xdcrlab@quake.net))) Ultrasonic Transducer Solutions
"The stupid opinions expressed here are my own and should not be construed as superior to the stupid opinions of others. EITA"
***
From: dynasor@infi.net (Dennis McClain-Furmanski)
I have spent several days which I should have spent on my thesis researching
this.
The science is solid. Although many results presented were done without
comparison to controls, virtually all of traditional medicine has been done
in like fashion.
In short, I am impressed, amazed and sold. I am going to the apothecary to
get some (non-stabilized) H2O2 and start a regimen.
Although I think it's important to stress that I was at least 50% convinced
by Waves Forest's story in _3 Fisted Tales_. And much of the rest of my
conversion came during an extended session with a North American 'frop
species and the attendent psychic spring cleaning. The science should always
be subservient to the *reason*.
Praise "Bob", I'm going to get myself right with the biosphere and start
participating in it. And I AM going to quit smoking. I now have a REAL
reason for doing so.
--
dynasor@infi.net The Doctor is on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dynasor@infi.net (Dennis McClain-Furmanski)
Modemac (modemac@netcom.com) wrote:
: This deserves a re-post.
: Dennis McClain-Furmanski (dynasor@infi.net) wrote:
: : On O2 therapy? Yeah, I got results.
: : I case of bronchitis heading to pneumonia, burned out in less than 24 hours
: : on the 5 oz bid therapeutic dose.
: : Someone doing research at Eastern Virginia Medical School wants my archives
: : to work from. They already have the full Medline results.
: : What I haven't done yet is look into NIH's new Alternative Treatments office
: : and see what they have to say about oxygen therapies.
: : Oh, and I was in a class with an ER doctor who did his best to make fun of
: : me and shoot down everything I said.
: : I tore that fuckhead a new asshole *strictly* with published articles.
: : He had absolutely NO information to back his assertions which were any more
: : objective than the label which says "not for internal use", on the same
: : substance that European countries use to purify their water instead of
: : chlorine.
: : It's an uphill battle of sorts, but not as much as you'd think. The enemy
: : has no weapons except ignorance.
: Fascinating! Do keep us informed of your work. Maybe you could prepare
: a simple pamphlet or text file on the basis of these methods. What are
: your comments on the suggestion of regular ingestion of H2O2, starting
: with one drop per X-number of ounces of water and working your way up to
: twenty-five?
First off, not being able to find food grade, I settled for normal 3%.
The Waves Forest update stated that the results are equivalent. The heavy
metal comments were pure scare tactics. The additive in it is phosphoric
acid, typically at around .001%.
I put 1 pint of 3% in 3/4 gallon of water to get a solution just under the
.5% max. Instead of drinkjing it straight now, I use it in more water to
make my nightly kava-kava and dream herb tea. I make it cold. The dream herb
tastes so nasty I don;t notice the H2O2.
As for the rest, I got my alternative medicine class involved. Several
people are going to try it. The prof is currently treating an MS patient and
a cancer patient. I'll post results when I get them.
There's an infomercial with a Dr. Alex Duarte (MegaSystems is the company)
selling books, and one of these is _Ozone Cover-up_. The info is good, but
they want $70 for a book, or $160 for all 4 books. The others are on diet,
shark cartiledge and importing non-FDA-approved drugs from overseas. The
same info is available through MONDO 2000's Users' Guide as well as other
places. Don't bother paying this price -- go to other sources like free ones
on the net.
--
dynasor@infi.net The Doctor is on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bdb@shadow.net (Doktor BoogieDown)
dynasor@infi.net (Dennis McClain-Furmanski) wrote:
>There's an infomercial with a Dr. Alex Duarte (MegaSystems is the company)
>selling books, and one of these is _Ozone Cover-up_. The info is good, but
>they want $70 for a book, or $160 for all 4 books. The others are on diet,
>shark cartiledge and importing non-FDA-approved drugs from overseas. The
>same info is available through MONDO 2000's Users' Guide as well as other
>places. Don't bother paying this price -- go to other sources like free ones
>on the net.
This rang a loud GONG in my head when I read it. Maybe THAT'S why there is
a hole in the ozone layer over Antartica. Various Con organizations are
scooping it up, and selling it to other members of the Con for better
medical health. Keeping it far away from the "masses", where it is really
needed most.
Just a passing thought...
Semper Dobbs,
Doktor BoogieDown
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