Today's Topics:
I am
the highest form of capitalism
you know what you are!
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Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 08:32:53 CST
Message-Id: <9106181432.AA03398@track29.lonestar.org>
From: "Reverend 3.0" <rev30@track29.lonestar.org>
To: Subgenius@mc.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: I am
>six foot, something,
6' 4"
>dating jannet,
Jeanette
>who once dated the Rev. Guy.
Actually, it was more than once, I'm told.
Has Buck been shootin' off his mouth again?
-Rev 3.0
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Message-Id: <9106180715.AA04050@twitch.media.mit.edu>
To: subgenius@mc.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: the highest form of capitalism
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 03:15:24 EDT
From: Michael Travers <mt@media-lab.media.mit.edu>
I knew I could get a rise if I posted that organ-trading article to
usenet. Perhaps this guy would like to go into business, so please
send him mail telling him what body parts you are willing to sell,
asking price, condition, etc.
From: lvc@cbnews.cb.att.com (lawrence.v.cipriani)
Subject: Re: Glories of the marketplace
Date: 17 Jun 91 21:38:53 GMT
In article <MT.91Jun17154700@debussy.media-lab.media.mit.edu> mt@debussy.media-lab.media.mit.edu (Michael Travers) writes:
>
>I trust that the libertarians among us will be quick to decry the
>unwarranted government intervention in free trade that this article
>describes.
>
>(From Time Magazine, June 17, 1991)
>
> "Trading Flesh Around The Globe"
Yes, libertarians decry unwarranted government intervention in all forms of
|:qree trade. It is not obvious that government intervention is warranted
in the market for body parts, to me. Is it a shame that some people are
so cash poor they are willing to part with an organ to raise money ?
Yes, but that's not sufficient reason to stop it. Are you saying we
[society] would all be better off if a free market in body parts, obtained
from willing participants [!] was prohibited ? The buyer and sellers in
this market are obviously not going to be better off becuase you are taking
away one of their options on how to best solve their own problems. Any
abuses in this market should be treated like those in any other market.
There is nothing special about body parts, but that's what we're supposed
to be upset about. Yeah, right.
What we have now without a free market in body parts is gov't rationing.
You wait in line, and if the gov't decides you are worth saving you get
a body part. It is frightening to me that people are so easily sold on
the notion that the gov't should have the power of life and death over
them. Is that supposed to be better somehow than a free market ? Ha ha.
If you can get your face plastered in the newspapers, like Slime, er
Time magazine, you'll get the sympathy [and cash] of people who want to
help you overcome the high cost of transplants. If there was a free
market in organs, the supply of organs would be higher and the cost per
organ would be lower. People wouldn't be waiting in line, make that
dying in line, for organs as long. Now, there is the objection that
only the rich can afford to buy organs. One, I don't think it's a valid
objection, but I'll address it any way. I don't believe it to be true
in a general case. That is, you can take out a loan for it, you can
get money from a church or other charitable organ-ization [pun intended],
in other words, I don't think it's a big deal. There are costs for
everything, organs are no different. It would be better to have a free
market in organs and have the gov't subsidize the poor who need them
than to not have a free market in organs at all.
Didn't Russ Nelson say something about how property was theft ? If
so, I demand he turn in a kidney and cornea to the proper authorities!!!
> A ghoulish notion: people so poor that they sell
>some of their body parts to survive. But for scores
>of brokers who buy and sell human organs in Asia,
>Latin America, and Europe, that theme from a late-
>night horror movie is merely of supply and demand.
>There are thousands more patients in need of kidneys,
>corneas, skin grafts and other human tissue than donors;
>therefore, big money can be made on a thriving black
>market in human flesh.
Well now, what is the alternative ? People who have organs but
don't have money are prevented from parting with their organs in
exchange for money. People who have money but need an organ are
prevented from getting one in exchange for moeny. What exactly
does a prohibition on organ trading solve ? Nothing.
> In India, the going rate for a kidney from a live
>donor is $1,500; for a cornea, $4,000; for a patch of
>skin, $50. Two centers of the thriving kidney trade
>are Bombay, where private clinics cater to Indians and
>a foreign clientele dominated by wealthy Arabs, and
>Madras, a center for patients from Malaysia, Singapore,
>and Thailand.
There are rumors that Indian parents have sold their children
for their body parts; that's murder plain and simple.
>Renal patients in India and Pakistan who
>cannot find a relative to donate a kidney are permitted
>to buy newspaper advertisements offering living donors
>up to $4,300 for the organ. Mohammad Aqeel, a poor Karachi
>tailor who recently sold one of his kidneys for $2,600,
>said he needed the money "for the marriage of his two
>daughters and paying off of debts."
Are we supposed to be disgusted that a poor Karachi tailor would
part with one of his kidneys for $2,600 so he could pay for the
marriage of his two daughters and to pay off some debts ? I'm
not in the least. He thinks this is the best thing for him to
do, so let him!
> In India, Africa, Latin America and Eastern Europe,
>young people advertise organs for sale, sometimes to pay
>for college educations. In Hong Kong a businessman named
>Tsui Fung circulated a letter to doctors in March offering
>to serve as middleman between patients seeking kidney
>transplants and a Chinese military hospital in Nanjing that
>performs the operation. The letter said the kidneys would
>come from live "volunteers," implying that they would be
>paid donors. The fee for the kidney, the operation and
>round-trip airfare: $12,800. With that, the Hong Kong
>government moved to put into effect legislation that would
>ban all buying and selling of organs. The Hong Kong case
>underscored already widespread concern about the 2,000 or
>so transplants performed annually in the People's Republic,
>where many of the harvested kidneys come from executed
>prisoners.
I guess the PRC doesn't execute with lethal injection or
electric shock, eh ? Chalk one up to the brillance of
communism.
> Elsewhere, authorities are working to bring the flesh
>market under control. Britain passed a law in 1989 for-
>bidding organ sales after a Turk complained that he had been
>lured to Britain with a job offer, sent to a hospital under
>false pretext, then anesthetized and relieved of one of his
>kidneys.
If the Turk wants it back he should be able to get his kidney
back, even if the person who has it would die without it.
Sue the hell out of anyone involved, and throw them in jail
for endangering the Turks life.
>Germany is pushing through a similar law, spurred
>in part by an abortive offer from a Soviet medical institute
>to porvide German patients with Russian kidneys for a fee of
>$68,750 - payable in deutsche marks.
Are the Soviets so desperate for cash ? Have the run out of
gold already ?
-- If there was a free market in organs sellers of organs should be informed of all the known risks involved and their sign off on lots of forms indicating they know what they are doing. That is about the only regulation on the organ market I would agree to.Oh and by the way, there already is a widespread free market in one important body part, blood.
-- Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or lvc@cbvox1.att.com "Ban politicians" -- me------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 91 23:11:13 -0700 From: "Joel S. Kollin" <jkollin@u.washington.edu> Message-Id: <9106180611.AA25520@milton.u.washington.edu> To: Subgenius@mc.lcs.mit.edu Subject: you know what you are!
>From: Joshua Glasser <shadow!joshua@uu.psi.com> >Subject: you know who you are!
> six foot, something, dating jannet, who once dated the Rev. Guy.
No, more like...
six feet, something else, multiple tenticles, three eyes, once dated Shirley McClain...
"Don't worry, Be happy, and Have a Nice Day!" - MC 900 Foot Jesus
- Revvy the K
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End of Subgenius Digest ******************************
